aftermarket TCI compatibility.

[johnD]

Hi all.
As in the thread 'carb settings', I have been trying to breath life into this one. Carbs check out, compression very good, no air leaks etc.
It 'can' be persuaded into life with mucho application of heat and some help from easy start, (I know, not good, but desperation...). it runs for a short while, then stutters to a halt. When cranking, it will give the odd spit back or thump in the silencer.
The sparks are pretty good, with new plugs to eliminate them. I have gone over everything with a fine tooth comb.
Then I happened to come accross a thread in a grey bikes forum from a guy suffering the same kind of symptoms.
It would appear that there are two differnt ignition timing rotors fitted to these and various other bandits of the same era. the TCI has to match the specific rotor.
This has an aftermarket TCI fitted that seems to be a generic accross all the range of 400's. Many others before me have attempted to bring this to life, all have failed. I have convinced myself that this can only be the last possible cause of its failure to start.....
So. If anyone has a genuine TCI for loan or sale I would be enternally grateful. I gather the correct part number is: BB7252 46DO1 (but I do stand to be corrected).
So, BIG plea for help.... Thankfully bonfire night has passed so it lives for a little while longer!
Cheers

[Smallkat]

Part number I have for the igniter is 32900-46D00.

Not sure how many people will have a genuine igniter that still works. We believe they are programmed to die in 2022. Cleverly, they don't just die though, they spend a few months with an intermittent fault, so you think it's the carbs.

[johnD]

Hi Smallkat, been a little while.
I've not been idle. I have found a set of carbs from a gs550 4 that are 32mm, take the same jets, but are far less complex than the OE things fitted. Some carbs are too clever for their own good. These did give me some hope, the chuffs and pops happen far easier. But, I am left with the only logical conclusion that ignition timing must be off.
Trouble is, there is no way to check. The timing marks are behind the LH casing and the only way to observe the spark point or use a timing light is to rotate the engine, which needs the casing on to mount the trigger properly (and operate the starter) which is hidden behind the casing.....
Given the number of people who have given up, given that carbs have been cleaned within an inch of their lives, it has been fed a diet of expensive new plugs, offered nothing but the finest premium petrol, aided by some judicious squirts of ether,has a battery fitted from my Aprilia, (which is probably more powerful than this engine), I have given it every opertunity and incentive to start.
Invective over... I don't object to a Chinese igniter, as long as I know, for sure, it is compatible. So if anyone can point me in that direction, with a good, known supplier, I will burn a candle to your soul, or somesuch....
Cheers

[fossie]

John D ..while I can not offer any help on the CDI ( TCI) ,other than say Ia, I'm one of those who used a Chinese copy one and it worked ( though it is true it was years ago and quality control from the people Rublic is at best questionable ) for the price it's worth a punt ..
No point of this response is applaud your efforts ....more Tenacious D than JohnD ..

[johnD]

Thanks fossie!
Tenacious, I like that, better than pig headed I suppose.
So. here it is folks. 91 -92 use a different pick up rotor to the 93 models

Looks like I have a 93 model, that needs the 32900-10D60 TCI unit. I'm guessing that my aftermarket unit is for the more common 91 92 models, by 93 baby Kat sales had dwindled in Japan.
So I now have a search on two fronts, for a late TCI or an early timing rotor. I'm guessing the rotor will be easier to source if anyone has an early scrap motor....?
BTW, learnt something. Seems the early engines had a higher rev limit, identifiable by a shim under the exhaust valve spring to put more tension on it.... Not going back into my head to see...

[fossie]

With reference to a grey bike forum and the need for the Bandit Cdi ( TCI) being specific ...this I can agree with there were 3 types of 400 Bandit at the same time time ...
There was the bogstandard 400 Bandit for Jap market ...there was a variable valve version and as it suggests the timing altered as the revs increased .. Then there was the Euro version with in its self had 2 options ...the rest of Euro and the French down bh'd version .. Again specific Cdi


NON OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH A 400 Katana , because contrary to what folk Lore says or the Internet warriors copy and paste ....the 400 katana Was not and is not a Bandit engine .
It is a GSXR engine from 92 ...the same engine used in the impulse and water cooled 400 GSXR for the Japanese home market , there was no need to produce multiple variants .
The frame numbers quoted on the diagram are not Katana !

To this end I have never heard of a later or earlier variant of the engine of the 400 Kat ....you may well have stumbled on to something , but if you are basing your searches on the Bandit link , give up now before you end up with a bike in bits waiting for something that dosen't exist and even Santa can't help with?

[johnD]

Hi fossie.
If it quacks like a duck etc...
Right now I'm more concerned with the ignition systems than any mechanical differences. As you can see from this shot of the Bandit Sprag clutch/ignition rotor, they are the same.

Just to add to my confusion, this engine came with the 32900-10D00 igniter unit, supposedly fitted to the earlier rotor.... Ho hum....

[Smallkat]

But the engine fitted is not a Bandit engine, it's a Kat/Impulse/GSXR motor? So shouldn't it need parts specific to those models? Or have I missed something?

In my experience, if Suzuki could use parts for multiple models, they would. If it has a different part number (apart from the final two digits) it probably won't fit or won't work. So if you are thinking of using a Bandit ignition rotor, here are the part numbers:

GSF400 M/N (91/92) 12600-32811
GSF400 P (93) 12600-33850
GSX400SS N (92) 12600-46810

[johnD]

Hi Smallkat.
Though my reference is for the bandit motors, the ignition systems 'seem' to be the same accross all the 400-4 models. As with Yamaha, Suzuki have a great deal of commonality accross their ranges.
So, extrapolating the Bandit data, and given that my trigger rotor is exactly the same as that shown in the picture of a Bandit motor and that this motor came supplied with a (sadly, non working) 32900-10D00 igniter unit, I can, with some confidence, assert that they are one and the same.
So, it also follows that there are at least two different trigger rotors and, at least, two different igniter units.
My problem is that we are now in the aftermarket, er, market for replacement igniters. Do the Chinese know of these differences, or even care?
The unit I have makes all the right 'noises', but is it matched to my rotor? Given the symptoms of backfires etc. I am of the opinion it is not.
How to prove this, given no access to the timing marks within the L/H casing? Well, at great expense and for the common good, I have prchased an old side casing, (complete with pickup coil, so saves a lot of messing). This I will cut away in the region of the crankase timing mark and the rotor timing mark. Now I can get a strobe gun on the marks to prove, or disprove that point. It will be turned over on the starter, but that turns the engine over quickly enough to get a good reading...... I await delivery.

[fossie]

So getting back to the beginning , has this 400 ever started in your tenure ship John , you say it came with this CDi from a Bandit .....my best guess is that this is the issue ..a previous owner ..'cos there's no saying the last one was successful ( 400/250 have multiple owners in short times !)
Tried to source a new one and with the duff info about Bandit engines ended up with one that looks the same but is not adequate .

You do need to borrow a 400 one to check , but most people would be a bit unsure about lending due to the possibility of importing an issue I realise. My vote is as before take a punt on a Chinese one for the money , if it doesn't work it's not the end of the world an to be honest if you somehow have ended up with some mutant and the Cdi is not compatible , you can easily find a home for it .