400 Starting Issues

[Smallkat]

I thought I would start a new thread for this as it may be useful for reference.

During the summer, I have been using Smallkat most days. I have been using Esso or Shell premium E5 fuel with Star*Tron fuel additive. It always started first or second go*. Once left for a week or so, the starting became a little more difficult, with a bit of 'churning' required, but always starting eventually. So this winter I am experimenting with Aspen 4 ethanol-free fuel. It's very expensive (£4 -£5 a litre, depending on quantitiy), but could be cheaper in the long run than a new starter motor or a hair transplant.

Just to mention that she had a valve job, carb balance and new oil and filter at the end of September this year, so all is in good shape. Plugs have done about 500km and are NGK iridium.

So today, first job was to attempt a start after being left standing for a couple of weeks. Still having the E5 in it. My start method is full 'choke', 5 seconds on the button, 20 seconds rest. Hopefully this prolongs the life of the starter motor. Lots of churning, lots of times it nearly catches, sometimes caught for a couple of seconds. But after a lot of attempts nothing really happening. I should have counted the number of times really, but I forgot. Probably about 20.

Drain tank, drain carbs, add Aspen fuel, put fuel tap on prime and it started second press.

My theory is that with E5, all the easily combustible elements of the fuel evaporate off, making it hard to get the motor going. So I don't think the stabiliser is doing a great job in this regard. It may be preventing the formation of water standing in the tank or float bowl, but obviously can't replace the easily combustible parts of the fuel.

I will try to remember to start the bike each week and report on progress.

For comparison, the X7 started after 6 kicks. It's on E5 plus additive, but hasn't been started for about 3 weeks.

*as a side note, sometimes pressing the button results in nothing happening at all. This seems totally random, but I am going to change the relay just in case.

[fossie]

Nice idea Smallkat and I await the out come of the experiment . I would like to say the bit about pressing the starter and nothing is something I found with mine ...sometimes nothing then the next time chug chug chug ...vroom etc . It was finally found to be the loom area from starter button to relay as it passes the frame getting trapped and crushed resulting in intermittent connection .

[Uncle Bob]

I did drain and use Aspen in about 4 bikes last year including the 400. All was OK but it is expensive.
I haven't done this year as I just haven't had time, though I've still about 2 litres left.

Saying that I stored the Swiss Katana at my mum's Nov 2021 with Aspen in and started it up for the first time 2 weeks ago and it started right up, so about a 1 year in storage (with battery optimizer on).

UB

[johnD]

Hi Smallkat. Just a two pennorth' from frigid Manchester.
As I might have mentioned, I have a little sideline in repairing/servicing local bikes, word of mouth but kept busy.
I seem to get the ones that owners, mates and onlookers have all had a go at, so fualts can be mysterious and many. I have had a Suzuki GSX1400 in the garage for a few months, owner in no rush 'till next year. This was a non starter. After getting the recall on the immobiliser sorted, I expected an easy job. Would it start... Not a chance. Did what I always do with Suzukis stood for a while, change the plugs! Yup, burst into life immediately. Left it for a (good) few weeks whilst wrestling with the 400, came back, coughing, missing, very sulky. I had ordered up some plugs for the 400, they sent CR 8 E plugs, one level hotter, but also a single electrode type. That bike has started perfectly even during the coldest weather on record.
Tried them in the 400, same thing, a quick prod with choke and off she goes.
Iradium plugs do not like to be left unused. I am convinced that the ethanol/additives in modern fuel contaminate these plugs, the older design seems to shrug this off.
You might cavil at using a hotter plug on the 400, but this seems to be a very cool running/overcooled motor. Even after running for ten minutes, the exhaust is still dripping water condensate, not good news for the steel exhaust system.
So... Try some 'old fashined' plugs in there, cheap enough so nothing lost.....

[Smallkat]

Nice idea Smallkat and I await the out come of the experiment . I would like to say the bit about pressing the starter and nothing is something I found with mine ...sometimes nothing then the next time chug chug chug ...vroom etc . It was finally found to be the loom area from starter button to relay as it passes the frame getting trapped and crushed resulting in intermittent connection .

Thanks Fossie, I will check out that bit of wiring when I do the relay.

[Smallkat]

I did drain and use Aspen in about 4 bikes last year including the 400. All was OK but it is expensive.
I haven't done this year as I just haven't had time, though I've still about 2 litres left.

Saying that I stored the Swiss Katana at my mum's Nov 2021 with Aspen in and started it up for the first time 2 weeks ago and it started right up, so about a 1 year in storage (with battery optimizer on).

UB

Okay, so this is a plus one for Aspen!

[Smallkat]

Hi Smallkat.

Just a two pennorth' from frigid Manchester.

You might cavil at using a hotter plug on the 400, but this seems to be a very cool running/overcooled motor. Even after running for ten minutes, the exhaust is still dripping water condensate, not good news for the steel exhaust system.
So... Try some 'old fashined' plugs in there, cheap enough so nothing lost.....

I'm living in Inskip, north of Manchester!

I agree that 'old fashioned' or 'normal' plug types may be the way to go. But for the purpose of this experiment, I'm going to stick with the iridiums. Next winter I will try with the 'normal' type plugs and see what happens. Then we have a consistent method (in my mind!). I quite like the idea of the hotter plug as I don't thrash mine anyway. Unfortunately, it introduces another variable, but if the problem is solved long-term that will be good for all owners. I'll have a think about that.

I noticed a lot of condensation from the exhaust drain hole too. But, I did think the pipes were stainless steel for some reason.

PS - I had to look up the meaning of cavil!

[fossie]

The standard plug for the 400 is an 8 (CR8EK)

[Smallkat]

Indeed it is, 8 standard, 9 optional.

Now I'm not sure what I have in at the moment. I will check one day, probably after Christmas when I am sober.

[johnD]

Thanks for that confirmation, fossie. For some reason, my local dealers chart shows 9's as being the recommended plugs, so they sold me some horrifically expensive irradiums.... Maybe the Ebay people are more on the ball.

Not a thread hijack, just a quicky. How noisy is the clutch basket? Mine is definitely rattly, improved by careful balancing, but noticably quieter when the clutch is pulled in. Thoughts....